I don’t think any of those titles would fall under “depressing” or “bleak.” I can see what you’re saying, but it’s really all in the way you look at things. Bergman has always been one of my favorites, and unfortunately all my real life friends can’t stand it. Everyone seems to find him incredibly hard to get through, where I sit riveted. I don’t know.
I guess what I mean is that upbeat cheery movies don’t move me. It’s the hardships and the desperate elements of life, that when magically captured on film with a well written script (usually somber in tone) are really riveting to me.
When I was young, the first time I saw Donald O’Connor perform “Make ’Em Laugh” in Singin’ in the Rain it upset me so much I ran and stuck my head in the oven. My mother quickly pulled me out and told me, “No more ‘Singin’ in the Rain’ for you, mister!” It’s been my favorite film ever sense.
Liem: None of the films you have mentioned are depressing or bleak – only those who don’t like them would be considered this as Cinesnag suggests. Great films can be depressing and bleak, like say, Ikiru, Umberto D. or Breaking the Waves, (and for Bergman – Persona and The Silence) but I am afraid your films are too uplifting or even funny (Dr. Strangelove, for example) to qualifiy except to those dolts who don’t like anything that isn’t terribly shallow – obviously, no one on this site.
The only films I really find depressing and bleak are all the run of the mill movies out there – now THAT is depressing! Serious subject matter or dealing with it, should never preclude a movie from being in your category of great films. Not everything can be a comedy, and as we all know, life certainly isn’t (except for certain posters on this site).
But seriously, I do see your point, and perhaps great films must also be realistic enough to have a bit of pathos in them. Do you think Chaplin’s great films such as Modern Times, Limelight, or City Lights would be considered, by your standards, depressing and bleak? They do have moments of pathos, to be sure.
No, of course not. ANNIE HALL is bleak? Bleakness is only a requirement for great art if you’re 16 years old. You definitely need a close viewing of SULLIVAN’S TRAVELS.
I think Modern Times is bleak as hell, Bob.
You brought up a really interesting topic, Liem. I think it has to do more with being realistic, as Bob mentioned, than negativity. Some of the movies on your list are favorites of mine as well, and I believe one of the reasons I like these movies so much is that they take people’s life experiences and themes that are common to us all, and treat them as they actually are in life. The truth of the matter is, like the Buddha said, life is difficult. Sorry for getting all philosophical here, but I think you get my point. Also, all the movies you mentioned have moments that are really funny, kind of like real life. Richard Linklater says in his introduction to Fassbinder’s “In a Year With 13 Moons” that a lot of people ask him why he enjoys this movie so much when they think it’s so depressing, and, basically, he said because he can relate to it, he feels less alone with his own problems, sufferings, etc. He also says, and I agree, that no movie is more alienating to him than those bombastic Hollywood blockbusters with their ooh-and-ahh special effects and booming soundtracks. As for me, no movie can put me in a bad mood like a romantic comedy.
I guess it all depends on what your in the mood for. Sometimes you want cry and sometimes you want to laugh. And sometimes they’re not mutually exclusive. As far as I’m concerned any flick has the opportunity for greatness. Some reach it. Some don’t.
Billy Wilder, Preston Sturges, and Woody Allen made plenty of great feel good films. So no, great films don’t need to be depressing or bleak. Maybe for your personal taste that is the case, becasue you don’t enjoy the aforementioned directors works. It is a fact though not your opinion that some of those films are great ones. So the answer is no.
SABRINA (Wilder)
SLEEPER (Allen)
MY NEIGHBOR TOTORO (Miyazaki)
CHUNGKING EXPRESS (Wong Kar-Wai)
are feel good and not bleak. I know what you are getting at and judging by how many I can list, it is probably more difficult and rarer to make enduring, quality comedy/feel good drama.
Bob, I agree with your comments that some of the movies on my list are not necessarily bleak and some are actually comedic. Overall, for the non-cinema-geek general public’s view, those and other movies I enjoy are depressing and/or dark in nature. It’s really me saying that melancholic movies actually uplift my spirits. Partly because they have touched me through their depiction of sufferings, hardships, and cruelties of life (Anna commented on similar notions). To compare with something non movie related—people in each of our lives, tend to forget the good things you’ve done for them, but rarely ever forget the bad things.
I am glad that my top choices aren’t totally bleak, since they are movies that get repeated viewings from me. On the other hand, there are slews of movies that I’ve been drawn to that almost make me feel uncomfortable or unsure of my taste for fine cinema—sort of the thin line between sanity and losing sanity.
Not that I’m genre or themed specific, there are plenty of light-hearted or romantic movies that I do enjoy. They just don’t stay with me as deeply as those that are more dark themed.
The only bleak movies I can think of are Hollywood blockbusters that are mainly a product and not a work of art. It’s depressing to see that those types of films are what the masses watch.
Liem, I don’t think your list is depressing at all. It’s mainly a list of movies with strong characters having a go at it, struggling and trying to find meaning. From the list you mentioned “Wings of Desire”, “Lost in Translation”, “Magnolia”, “Eternal Sunshine…”, “Annie Hall”, even “Rear Window” are pretty feel good movies for me. They end on bittersweet tones, they make you think and smile at their portrayal of life.
A favorite of mine is Agnes Jaoui who directs, co-writes with husband Jean Pierre Bacri and they both act in her films. From the list you posted at the top of the thread I think you’d like her. =)
citing great non-bleak movies clearly misses the point, but screw it: how about “playtime” (tati); “day for night” (truffaut); “zero de conduite” and “l’atalante” (vigo). or “bob le flambeur” (melville) which ends on a weirdly buoyant note.
actually i’d say jacques tati’s entire oeuvre qualifies.
No?
Ever seen Ratatouille?
“Overall, for the non-cinema-geek general public’s view, those and other movies I enjoy are depressing and/or dark in nature. It’s really me saying that melancholic movies actually uplift my spirits.”
Agreed. Melancholic dramas or black comedy draw lines around, and highlight, the beauty and absurdity of existence. The bittersweet nature of my favorite films comes from a realistic portrayal of life in non-absolutest terms. This is the mix I like best: a little dirt in the joy, laughter in the sadness.
I tend to mark great films by how strongly the film’s goals are accomplished, whether I would want to watch it again, and whether the film would hold up after a multiple viewings. So, relentlessly bleak films are usually precluded from my lists as they don’t get many repeated viewings from me. Hyepr-bleakies are great at what they do, but corrosive on multiple viewings (IRREVERSIBLE, SAVIOR, BERLIN ALEXANDERPLATZ, etc).
Why should a set of films that you love be considered anything more than the films that you love? This set, while some, might be considered to a neglected few as depressing, are also (Annie Hall and Dr. Strangelove) seen on the AFI’s top 100 comedies list. Annie Hall is as honest a movie as you will ever see and because of that, you can’t help but laugh at almost everything that comes forth. Anna said it perfectly, most of these films are close examples of life without any added sugar, it’s black as hell, but isn’t that the way it should be? I wouldn’t consider myself a fan of Lost in Translation, but if one film on your list really struck me as depressing, that would be it. Spirit of the Beehive is one of my all time favorites as well, and because of that, very few films make me as happy. One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest is a feel good film to me, when it ended my heart was racing and I couldn’t help but start it over again, no other film at the time made me feel that overwhelming energy. And Wings of Desire, possibly my all time favorite film, is another one of those experiences that, in the midst of entrancement, I was almost jumping up and down through the whole thing, because Wim Wenders words were so powerful that it moved me beyond anything I could have ever experienced with laughter. These films move because they speak. That is why you love them. They bring originality; they show you things that you have never seen. Once again, that is why you love them. The greatest films have no genre, just a voice.
I’m not assembling a canon for all time. Just my own subjective canon for all time.
“Annie Hall” and “Dr. Strangelove” are great and don’t register on the hyperbleak scale. They are funny and bleak, good admixtures. They also suffer from too much exposure. Other films have just as much clout and are talked about far less.
“They bring originality; they show you things that you have never seen”
Exactly. They should bring more than originality though. If they only offer originality, then the film has served its purpose. No need to hear the joke again since you know the punchline. Films need to bring ideas to empathize with (however tangentially) and a depiction of paradoxical human experience in a cohesive manner (even if only cohesive unto itself).
Also, in regards to the bleakest, when someone says “IRREVERSIBLE/BREAKING THE WAVES is my favorite movie. I watch it over and over endlessly. Whenever I’m sad, I just watch Monica Belluci/Emily Watson get pummelled and I have a good laugh…”
I either A) don’t believe them or B) avoid them. A) being a slightly prententious newbie who hasn’t seen enough good film but made a good start, and B) being a secret serial killer.
Liem and all the insighful posts: I think one thing we can all agree on here, each from our somewhat different perspective, is that films we truly like and believe in, like many you mentioned Liem, or others have added, must meet the criterion of believeability to be great – in our estimation. That is, they must be true to life as we know it: complex, happy/sad, depressing at times, surprisingly uplifting at others. The only thing they can’t have in common with ‘real’ life, is they can’t be boring. These films don’t give us neatly-packaged answers, and some times force us to re-examine are own values. They make us think, laugh, cry, and ultimately understand that life is just a little messier than we first thought. Greatness comes from depth – not shallowness. That’s what separates the movies, and indeed the people, we love. They do not run with the herd.
And a darn funny one he was.
This is something that I have thought about as well, as I consider most of my favorite films to be ‘heavy’, ‘dark’, and ‘depressing’. More than anything, I think that it is because they are so much more realistic, and thus more moving. I believe the reason why we connect so much with these is that, as a society, we take the ‘good’ to be the social norm and thus anything else to be a deviance. As such, most of the commercial ‘crap’ that always finishes with happy, unrealistic endings is seen by most of us as being boring and unoriginal. Because it is what most people want to see, there is naturally a lack of artistry because the film has been created for the audience rather than for the satisfaction of the director.
In the end, I believe the majority of people simply look at cinema as a form of entertainment, whereas I, like many of you, view it as an art form, a means of expression which lends itself to the creator/artists ideas. Like all other forms of art, there are naturally many artists who have pessimistic viewpoints and prefer to express these through the film arena.
No more dramas about domestic relationships.
They’ve reduced human interaction to a series of dysfunctional moments for actors to play off. I know that life is bleak but life is lyrical too.
French dramas like a Christmas Tale with people smoking and bickering like the French do is akin to watching paint dry and hoping it dried faster.
A movie doesn’t have to be bleak to be great, but if it’s any indication of academy’s taste, it’s always those bleak movies that scream for Oscar. A movie like Wall E said more about our current state of globalization than any self important “serious” drama that concentrated on hitting hard over the head at the expense of entertaining you. I say the last words seriously, movies with depressing messages should also entertain, and that’s the balance that makes a depressing one to a clearly ingested one. Lars Von Tier doesn’t think so, because he makes films for people who want to feel like those characters. I get more stimulus out of watching something else. I like nothing but challenging films.
I like honesty as much as any cinephile, that’s why I flipped for The Wrestler and didn’t think it was depressing. I found Irreversible darkly funny in certain moments. I don’t think realism necessarily equals sincerity, because cinema is really about how truthfully you can tell a story while lying at 24 frames per second. All those domestic dramas I mentioned would be discredited.
Films that explore human relationships with people face each other and bitch about how miserable they are have got to go. Filmmakers have gotten fucking lazy in the storytelling front, to some degree that the very significance of storytelling has been discredited to pedestrian presentation. The last one I promise to see and really think hit a right nerve was Revolutionary Road.
I believe cinema is in need of expansion, and films that expand the mind and cover territory without being narrowed to a specific genre are hard to find. Benjamin Button is depressing, but life is bittersweet. That’s truthful in a fantasy.
Maybe you’re mixing up conflict, and problems with bleak and miserable. Basically every story in the world has conflict, and some kind of problem that the characters face. The only movie that I can think off the top of my head that’s really really bleak, and depressing is Bleak Moments, and it’s not a great movie. In my attempt to find a movie that’s really not all that depressing but gets all the fame, and hooplah is maybe The Taste of Tea. The director wanted a movie where nothing bad happens. Or look at Animal House. It’s a classic and it’s not bleak, unless you think about John Belushi’s life after the film.
“Dr. Strangelove
Magnolia
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind
Lost in Translation”
In response to the original poster Im questioning his choice to find these films depressing and bleak entirely. While Dr. Strangelove does have a rather bleak ending (the whole world dies), the movie is too funny to focus on that. For the other three films, if you do not find their conclusions uplifting then you must have been in a pessimistic mood at your time of viewing.
Magnolia-Yes a lot of depressing stuff happens to people that do and do not deserve it; however, if John C. Reily’s speech at the conclusion doesn’t evoke some form of emotional uplift than the viewer is hopeless.
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind-If there is a better movie about the reality of love I have not seen it yet. Relationships can get fucked up and this film shows that; moreover, when people want to it is possible to start over or try again when they know its the right choice for them, which Eternal Sunshine displays.
Lost in Translation-So Bill’s character must hate his family and Scarlett hates her husband, but a different view shows that maybe both characters learn from their experience to appreciate what they have and maybe rediscover the person they fell in love with originally and the reasons for that.
Anybody who goes to movies simply to be entertained without a desire to come into contact with material that might challenge them or their views is going to believe that the films that have been mentioned here are depressing. As was said before, the average individual thinks of the simple equation movies = entertainment, nothing more nothing less. They feel tired from a taxing work week and other problems and go to a movie to escape and relax, the artistic merit of a film is really the last thing on their minds. What the average movie-goer doesn’t understand is that a film can have challenging, dark, and somber themes while still being uplifting in their artistry and presentation. A film doesn’t have to have happy and cheerful in order to offer that feeling of catharsis, relation, and of an emotional burden being lifted. I think any truly important film has to walk a line between the easy paths of artificial cheerfulness and emotional torture just for the sake of it. It’s really a case by case basis, and many films can be accused of employing pat answers and feel good manipulation, while others go for the exact opposite and try to create an atmosphere so depressing and shocking that it can garner attention simply through its brutality rather than any real merit. I’m a huge fan of Bergman as well and enjoy his films because as bleak as they may seem they exhibit a truth and humanism that I feel is cathartic and relatable in a way that a lot of more shallow but cheerful films will never be.
Liem, go and get yourself a good dose of AUNTIE MAME
Richard: “I’m a huge fan of Bergman as well and enjoy his films because as bleak as they may seem they exhibit a truth and humanism that I feel is cathartic and relatable in a way that a lot of more shallow but cheerful films will never be.” That hits the nail right on the head! I also appreciate what you said earlier: “It’s really a case by case basis, and many films can be accused of employing pat answers and feel good manipulation, while others go for the exact opposite and try to create an atmosphere so depressing and shocking that it can garner attention simply through its brutality rather than any real merit.” Another very important distinction. I have just been mulling over a lot of posts here re certain films with a tendency to use shocking imagery for its own sake – which can seem just as forced in its own way as films that just use the ‘feel good’ formula. Great films find a creative solution to this problem – not by avoiding it, but by bringing out the human reality of each situation – like Bergman does. We should not consider Bergman then bleak or depressing, but life-affirming and engaging by not skirting the thorny issues of human relationships and personal transcendence. It is bleak and depressing not to do this – to dis-engage us, like so many lesser directors do. Thank you!
“No good movie is depressing; all bad movies are depressing.”
-Roger Ebert
I actually like my movies a little on the down-side.
I think Woody Allen’s films are on the whole rather downers, but Annie Hall and Hannah and Her Sisters I found to be excellent exceptions. My personal favorite Allen film is Manhattan, which is rather bleak, but in watching Annie Hall again recently, I found it to be quite creative in technique with a healthy dose of optimism.
I could also name some Fellini films that I would not consider depressing: 8 1/2 (watching it is equivilent to stepping into my shoes, being autistic, and the ending is open to interpretation), Fellini Roma and Amarcord.
I also thought Scenes From A Marriage had a rather optimistic ending for Bergman. The TV version, anyway; I didn’t see the US version.
Lost in Translation I found to be a somewhat feel-good movie, even though the characters were melancholy. Speaking of which, how about Wes Anderson? Of the four of five of his I’ve seen, I thought The Royal Tenenbaums and Rushmore, while having their sad moments, achieved comedy greatness.
But my number one favorite feel-good movie is Junet’s Amelie. I think four European Film Awards and five Oscar nominations, as well as overwhelming public response, 8.6 on IMDB and 90% on RT should speak for its greatness. I just leaves me feeling great!
it’s because all there is in life is to try to give and receive love, and love is horrible pain.
however, the greatest film ever made is unquestionably DIRTY DANCING which isn’t depressing at all.
Liem Nguyen
After watching The Vanishing on the Auteurs’ site, I’ve realized something that’s been in the back of my mind for years. As a raving fan of Criterion Collection distributed films, I’ve come to really appreciate all the great directors and films that accompany them. Most of the all time greatest films that I admire and consider to be my personal favorites are downright somber and bleak in its core:
One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest
Scenes From a Marriage
Dr. Strangelove
High and Low
Magnolia
The 400 Blows
Annie Hall
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind
Rear Window
Spirit of the Beehives
Wings of Desire
Lost in Translation
Blade Runner
So does if have to take some form of negativity or sadness in films be considered “Great”? Is it pathetic or creepy to be affected that way?