um, I’m pretty sure black people can contextualize these things without it damaging their overall appreciation of a movie, book, etc.
I don’t think your friend would hold it against you.
It was a different time, meaning different standards and expectations are a given. If you feel she may be offended, simply offer her a brief context in which she should consider when watching the film. In other words, why you think it is significant, and also why its choice of “words” was deemed acceptable then but not now.
You can do this successfully by saying “Hey I think you will like this film, but keep in mind its old so there is some f*cked up dialogue”. Simple and short, Im sure she will understand.
…just for perspective, ‘nigger’ is said three times in “The Shining” from 1980. Let’s not get scared of words, as George Carlin said, it’s all about the context.
whats done is done. cant be mad at an old movie for using the term in the way that it was commonly used then. or, i should say, you can be mad at it, but thats not gonna change the fact that it happened. recognize it, criticize it, and move on. i dont think your friend would be horrified or completely upset with you.
The n-word is used umpteen times in Pulp Fiction. And it’s also used, in a more probing context, in von Trier’s Epidemic (1994). So it’s not like this word has disappeared.
I know she wouldn’t hold anything against me but I know that language would take away from her enjoyment of the film. I’ve talked to her about it. Anyone ever see Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story? There’s a scene where his girlfriend takes him to see Breakfast at Tiffany’s and she’s laughing with everyone else until she realizes that’s he’s quiet and clearly ashamed of Mickey Rooney’s cartoonish asian stereotype. Many otherwise great movies are tainted by these kinds of attitudes that were unfortunately considered acceptable before the civil rights movement. I just think it’s a damn shame is all. I’ve encountered this kind of thing before with movies and books (Kipling is one example. He’s an excellent poet whose personal attitudes prevent me from fully appreciating his work). I just wondered if other people had this problem and how much does it affect their enjoyment of a film
sorry, double post
i think yellow/black face holds a different significance then say the “n-word”. But really, context decides all.
Being asian myself as well, I wasn’t really offput by Breakfast at Tiffany’s for this either. Sure if it was made today I would be pissed, but it wasn’t
doesnt affect my enjoyment of a film. as hitchcock said, “my love for cinema outweighs any considerations of morality.”
Remember “The Renegade Slave” from ‘Birth of a Nation’ ?
The maid from ‘Gone With the Wind’?
Cartoons including "Coal Black an’ de Sebben Dwarfs’ and the bucktoothed Japanese in the wartime propaganda shorts?
It’s called history, and film history. I find such things to be highly educational in their own way, not something to shrink away from.
What I find amazing is that on this board today, I was the only one who even “dared” call the beast by its name, by spelling it out. In 2009.
Much like outdated humor, once the original purpose of a phrase or a depiction has been neutralized by the changing of time, what remains is a social document of a time, apart from the film. And that’s the key word for me: apart from the film. Otherwise, I wouldn’t watch ‘The Searchers’ again because of the patronizing, humiliating depiction of the Indian woman who gets married off to Jeffrey Hunter. But I do. And I enjoy the film.
I will not censor my viewing or tailor it to the prevailing winds.
jay are you retarded ?
If this person is truly your friend then a movie that is over 60 years shouldn’t really bother her. I mean she’s probably heared this stuff before in films anyway. If she had thought that she though you to be a racist then she would have dumped you as a friend a long time ago. A movie shouldn’t stop her from being your friend. I can understand trying to be sensitive but you may be over doing it.
Patrick, thank you for lowering the discussion to the level of the youtube comments section
I do have a hard time with broad racial stereotypes like Stepin’ Fetchit. They give me the creeps. And obviously there were people even in Griffith’s day or in the 30s who were much more sophisticated and less racist. Let’s not forget that after some showings of Birth of a Nation, people were lynched in the streets. We have the right to boycott anything we find offensive, from today or from the past. By which I mean just not watching it. But then it can be good to withstand it too, like “what doesn’t kill me makes me stronger.” The Searchers, idk, I find it disturbing but I also find it a little silly: it’s so overblown, and all of the moments where Wayne is virulently anti-Indian are so underscored dramatically that it becomes ironic to me. Certainly it’s a film whose layered attitudes have been highly debated: when you don’t pull your punches it often has the effect of seeming like you are. People look for a loophole. “He couldn’t have meant that.”
Then again, there’s the extreme anti-communism of Fuller’s Pickup on South Street. Yet he reveals himself as a leftist in Shock Corridor. Artists should not always be answerable to political claims.
The attitudes may be ‘tainted’ or despicable, but that doesn’t make the film or book despicable. Would you prefer that all unpleasant and despicable behavior be erased from memory, that books, film or whatever art form be cleansed of ugliness? That would be a lie and even more insulting in my view. Jay, you’re an intelligent individual, that’s obvious enough, and if this this girl is someone you care a great deal about, I’d be willing to bet that she is too and that she didn’t grow up with blinders on. This is our unavoidable past and it is something that can never be ignored. I can appreciate how this could be uncomfortable, but it won’t go away by shutting your eyes to it. You would be far better off discussing these things with her as you would here on this site, with knowledge, compassion and a willingness to learn from others. Best of luck.
Well, as I said. I talked to her about it and she wouldn’t want to watch the movie as that language would take away from her enjoyment. I have another friend who’s black who said she squirms in her seat at such language but is able to take it in context and it doesn’t detract from a film for her. I completely oppose censorship and would never argue for that. I just hate it when these things pop up for no reason. It’s a comedy. It’s not about racist characters. The language is said casually as if there’s nothing wrong with it and it’s frustrating because it reminds me of racist history when I’m simply trying to enjoy the film. That’s all I’m saying. It took me out of the film and took away from my enjoyment. Thus the vent. I’ll still watch the film but it taints it for me a bit. Just a personal opinion
Jay, you sound like a very good guy. But you don’t always have to be a hero. If the girl is getting some morbid racist kick out of the language, then maybe you should dump her. But if she’s just enjoying the film as a kind of thrill ride, then I’d say she’s nicely comfortable with herself and there’s nothing wrong with that.
@Justin-in reference to Samuel Fuller. You can be a leftist and not be a communist. They are not interchangeable except to the right wingers.
What is this place?
Okay, I appreciate all the well-meaning advice but, honestly, I’m not looking for advice about a girl. I have no problem with a girl. I was just mentioning that as a reason that those kind of scenes bother me. It’s because I think, or overthink of how they might bother someone else. I was merely curious if other people had this same issue with older films. In more recent cinema, racist language is meant to convey something about the character and their own attitudes. In the past, these things were put forward more casually because a lot of people shared those views back then. It just bugs me. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with other people being less sensitive to this kind of thing.
I seriously doubt that it would bother her. It’s a part of the film, why would that make her angry with you?
@ Steve, yes of course you’re right. I just grasped at the first example I could think of, of politics being relatively meaningless in art. All of my posts are pretty much talking off the top of my head, so yeah, I end up overstating/glossing over sometimes. Thanks for the caveat.
Somehow I missed Claus Harding’s second post. I agree with that completely and it is what I would have liked to have posted if I were so verbally gifted. Well said. Steve, I know a few right wingers and they don’t all think that leftists and communists are interchangeable. Tolerance works both ways. Not picking a fight though, just pointing that out.
I’ve never seen a discussion on such a trivial subject. This mentality is what keeps so many films on the shelves. Who cares if they used the n-word 60 years ago? Who cares if they use it now? What does that have to do with anything? People who focus on something as tiny as that shouldn’t even be watching historic/cultural films. You’re jaded and narrow-minded. Take the DVD out and watch Dark Knight again, okay?
Did you guys know that Jay knows a black girl???
I remember reading All The King’s Men.
This reminds of The Savages when Hoffman plays a classic movie for the old people and there’s a black-face scene…
Rooney’s Mr. Yunioshi in BREAKFAST was not so much offensive as outlandish, an over the top turn by a real ham, pushed even further by the prop department and those teeth. But BREAKFAST was all about the elfin Golightly, and everyone else was just chorus.
Flash back to 1919 and D.W. Griffith (always stirring pots) and BROKEN BLOSSOMS, Richard Barthelmess in yellow-face as “the Yellow Man” or “the Chink” (“Chinky,” as Gish affectionally calls him at one point). Barthelmess was a fine silent actor and gives a deep humanity to his character. There is a great comic moment when the two collared, white evangelist brothers stop in front of his shop, one of them telling the Yellow Man that his brother will be sailing for China the next day, on a mission to “convert the heathen,” and the Chink says, with a clearly ironic nod and smile, “I … I wish him luck.”
A fairly bold film even when looked at through the lens of today: a fifteen-year-old girl spending the night with an older man of another race; the really quite vicious child-beating; the rampant racism. Highly recommended.
Jeff,
I feel this thread is about done, but since you bring up ‘blackface’ (and tying it to another thread about how people forget history):
Of course what people remember is that ‘blackface’ was done by whites made up to look like black caricatures.
Also, blacks made themselves up to look like black caricatures on the same show circuit (‘the "chitlin’ circuit" as it was called.)
And finally, blacks made themselves up to look like caricatures of white people made up to look like black people (got that one?) in many shows.
It’s all history. But few remember anything about ‘blackface’ at all apart from a white man with black charcoal on his face.
The shows were immensely popular across the board while ‘touring attractions’ were the thing in cities big and small.
It’s a fascinating crossroads in American entertainment that could benefit from a well-done dramatic film.
Claus, Spike Lee already made that film. It’s called Bamboozled.
Jay Leighty
I watched Criterion’s Kind Hearts and Coronets for the first time last night. It’s a British black comedy from 1948 about multiple homicide. The script is witty and sharp and Alec Guiness plays eight small roles to perfection. 15 minutes in and I already love the film, 60 minutes in and I’m marveling at the great quotes and excellent acting. Maybe 90 minutes in and I think this could be one of my favorites. I’m thinking about sharing this film with friends. And then… the n word. Not once but thrice. I cringe and try to rationalize. “Did they actually say that?.. maybe that word has a different connotation in Britain… well, they were clearly quoting a Rudyard Kipling poem…” No use. It’s fucked up. I was just thinking about sharing the film with a young lady who’s black that I care a great deal about. I knew she’d be able to appreciate it… until that one exchange. That racist dialogue damaged a great movie. I find it hard to appreciate something that I think would be offensive and uncomfortable to people I care about. This is not the first time it’s happened and won’t be the last. Now I don’t know if I can look at this film the same way. Does anyone else ever have this problem with older films?